Watch The Episode

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In This Episode

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Takeaways
The act of hugging can create profound connections.
Self-love is a natural condition of owning who we are.
Setting boundaries is essential for healthy connections.
Rejection can impact self-worth but doesn’t define it.
Empowerment is about lifting others up, not tearing down.
Vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness.
The journey of self-discovery often involves facing fears.
Words matter; the language we use shapes our experiences.
True connection honors individual boundaries.
The hug you crave might just be the one you give yourself.

Sound bites
“Words matter. Empowerment is such a nicer word.”
“This matters. It’s going to be hard and do it anyway.”
“I would say these moments are going to happen.”

Chapters
00:00 The Power of Connection Through Hugs
02:53 The Journey of a Rebel Hugger
05:39 Navigating Boundaries and Vulnerability
08:44 The Impact of Rejection and Self-Worth
12:04 The Second Journey: Deeper Connections
14:46 Empowerment and Self-Love
17:38 The Role of Language in Healing
20:39 Facing Fears and Embracing Authenticity
23:25 Lessons in Radical Vulnerability

Links
To learn more about Melinda Lee Schmitt’s work, her empowering memoir, or to explore her coaching and upcoming events, visit melindaleeschmitt.com. You’ll find resources, heartfelt stories, and perhaps even the nudge you need to begin your own journey toward radical connection. For a deeper look into her world and ongoing projects, you can also follow her on Instagram and Facebook—her digital spaces are as welcoming as her embrace.

Unedited Full Transcript

Scott Allan (00:04.44)
Picture this, you’re standing in a crowded, all right, take two. There we go, glad it was at the beginning. All right, here we go, here we go. Picture this, you’re standing in a crowded grocery store, arms open, inviting a stranger, maybe a grumpy postal worker or a frazzled mom to step into your embrace. Some say yes, some flinch, some cry. Now.

Imagine repeating this day after day for an entire year across the country, chasing connection, but discovering what exactly tonight, we’re not just talking about hugs. We’re talking about the radical act of letting yourself be seen the risk of rejection and the revolution that happens when you finally turn that embrace inward. I’m Scott Allen and you’re listening to the enlightened life podcast.

The show where we don’t just skim the surface of healing, we dive head first into the deep end. Tonight’s guests will make you rethink everything you thought you knew about connection, courage, and the very meaning of self-worth. Linda Leishmet is an author, Burn the Patriarchy coach, founder of Encompass Energetics, and the original Rebel Hugger. She spent a year hugging strangers. You heard that right.

and then cross the country to do it all again, only to discover that the person she most needed to embrace was herself. memoir, Rebel Hugger, is a love letter to anyone who’s ever felt unworthy, unseen, or just plain tired of people pleasing. Linda, I have to say your story is wild. It’s brave and maybe just a little bit rebellious. And I am

Really thrilled to have you here. know our listeners, they’re about to go on this journey that’s going to be as uncomfortable as it is inspiring. So welcome to the show.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (02:06.768)
Thank you so much, Scott. I’m happy to be here.

Scott Allan (02:09.496)
Let’s start with the obvious. What possessed you to launch yourself into a year of hugging strangers? Is this this grand social experiment or a secret plea for connection? What were you really chasing?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (02:11.014)
Mm-hmm.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (02:23.238)
Well, it started with this grand social experiment, right? And it came from me being in a state, a new state, where I had left all my family and friends and I was really missing the connection of the hugs because I came from a very huggy family. And I thought, well, if I’m missing hugs, maybe other people are missing hugs. So this is a great opportunity for me to go out into the world and

You know, it just randomly hug a stranger is kind of weird, right? Like, so I felt like, right? So I felt like I needed to make sure that I had a purposeful intention behind it. And my intention was to share love, but also appreciation and gratitude for the moment that each person

Scott Allan (02:59.342)
might say that.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (03:20.998)
was present in my life. So even if it was for just a quick moment while they’re standing in front of me in the grocery store line, they had meaning and purpose and they had the opportunity to bring an uplift to my life. And so I wanted to make those connections, just this beautiful connection and validation of the human experience that would hopefully bring them joy and light in their days.

So that’s really where it started from.

Scott Allan (03:51.992)
So when you’re on the road, because you’re a people pleaser, you said you’re a people pleaser, you’re on the road, did you ever find yourself hugging just to make someone else comfortable even when your gut said, nope, don’t do that? Or how did you entangle genuine connection from the old reflex to a piece?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (03:55.301)
Yeah.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (04:05.904)
So that’s a really great question. So the cross-country trip came quite a few years later. But as I was doing that first year of hugs, my focus was solely on that I shouldn’t be not asking somebody for a hug just because of the way they look or the way they.

up here or you know that people pleasing really came into play there because I didn’t know enough to know how to have boundaries for myself. So I wasn’t sure of the what that where that line was between rejecting someone based on how they look or creating a boundary for myself because I need to still keep myself safe. And I’m kind of glad.

because I had the opportunity to learn where that line was by crossing it a little bit. So I was never unsafe in the moments where I found myself in very unsafe situations. I was able to remove myself, but if I had been more…

strict about creating boundaries, which you could really say a lot of us, rather than having boundaries, we have walls. And so it was a very fine line to make sure that I wasn’t creating a wall against hugging somebody that could really use it. And I have this amazing story where like in the very beginning of my year of hugs, I was out and it was like maybe my second or third weekend.

and I had to bring some trash to the waste disposal site. And I’m backing into my spot to be able to like grab the trash bags from the rear of my car. And I see this guy and I was like, he was a worker there. And I just went, my gosh, I can’t do this. I mean, this man was so big and he was burly and he had this like big beard and a fat cigar sticking out of his mouth. And I was like, I can’t.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (06:16.934)
I can’t do this. And I had this moment of, well, you’re not here to judge whether or not somebody is worthy of a hug. You’re here to hug to let them know that everybody is worthy of a hug, that we’re all human beings. And I just took a deep breath. And I walked up to him and I said, thank you so much for being here. Can I give you a hug?

Scott Allan (06:18.552)
Yeah

Melinda Lee Schmitt (06:43.078)
this man stands up, like he’s towering over me and he just wraps his arms right around my waist and lifts me up off the ground and is like belly laughing as he, and so like, as he’s putting me down, I can’t help but laugh along with him. And I’m like, I can’t believe I almost missed this opportunity. Like what a warm, welcoming hug that I just got from this man. So.

Scott Allan (06:51.939)
What?

Scott Allan (07:09.102)
rate is that but you know, I don’t know where you know what part of the country you’re in. I’m in New England, everybody’s like, hands off, you know, we’re just like, you know, there’s that there are these boundaries and people sometimes won’t even look at you when you go down the street. And I love when I go to another part of the country down south Midwest, and they’re all waving at you as you’re driving by and I’m like, this is so not like New England is just as soon. Look the other way. No, it’s crazy. I cannot imagine. You know, you talk about

personal space and letting people in that and I am a hugger with people I know, right? It’s this whole stranger thing. And it’s not even a question of what they look like. It’s a question of personal space. But I also think and you know, I don’t think that if I set out to go across the country and hug people, I would have the same response as a man. I think it’s very different.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (07:43.354)
Yeah. Yep.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (07:51.846)
Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Allan (08:08.608)
you know, a woman can be a little bit more.

disarming, you know, then a man can like, what is this garbage? You know what? Do know what I mean? If I had walked up to that same man, he’d be like, get away from me, you know, hit me with a kielbasa or something.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (08:18.902)
I do.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (08:25.99)
Ha!

Yeah, yeah, and I, you know, I’ve sat with that question a lot because I’ve been asked that question a lot. And I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t know how it would be different for somebody in a different part of the world or from a different point of view, from a man or woman point of view. But what I can say is that I grew up in the Northeast. I grew up in Connecticut. And

Scott Allan (08:53.946)
okay. Yep.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (08:54.724)
I’m now down in the South, so I have those two different perspectives. And my dad was actually my inspiration because he is a hugger, a big time hugger. And I watched him hug strangers regularly. And so, and here he was a man that like, so to me, that wasn’t even, it wasn’t as big of a deal because I watched my dad.

Scott Allan (09:10.466)
Really, very carefully.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (09:21.882)
do this. And I’m not talking about just other women, like he was out there hugging other men. so this was like my inspiration. And this is where it kind of came from. And it got me to really understand because I had watched him. I watched him disarm people. And it really came down to and I don’t know if it would always be this way for all people, because I know that some people have very specific fears around certain types of people.

Scott Allan (09:50.894)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (09:51.941)
But it was his energy. And he had this gentle, soft energy as he approached people. And it was completely vulnerable. And it was approachable. And so every time I was out there hugging people, because even as a woman, I could see the fear or the, I don’t really know if I wanted.

Scott Allan (10:13.262)
Yeah.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (10:16.346)
do this. Like, I want to say no, but the people-peasing side of me doesn’t want to say no, but I don’t know what to do here, you know? And I would see that. And when I saw that, it would cause me to deepen even more into my own vulnerability. Like, I would really pull myself back so that I wasn’t in their space, so they could make their own decision from their own space. And I really worked at grounding in a place that let them know that even if they said no, it was fine.

I wouldn’t be offended. They weren’t gonna hurt me. I just wanted to be out there sharing love.

Scott Allan (10:51.874)
Yeah. And, and you know, I mean, the other side of that too, is I was just thinking of this as you were talking. It’s like, you know, we, we live in a world that, you know, someone’s hugging me. Is there other hand coming around to my wallet? Well, I’m, you know I mean? It’s that kind of thing. You know, you have to, you have to be careful with this kind of stuff, I suppose. what kind of pushback did you get? Did you get any pushback?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (11:06.148)
Right, right.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (11:14.948)
You know, not nearly as much as I thought I was going to. I had, I mean, I hugged thousands of people that year and there was maybe less than five people that told me no. And even when they said no, it was like this really respectful, like, no, thank you. You know, just very sweet. For the most part, I got mostly just like the side eye, like, what are you doing?

Scott Allan (11:18.275)
Really.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (11:44.742)
And then they would hug me and I really leaned into the hugs. know, if somebody was really keeping me at an arms distance, I would respect the arms distance and like it would be like a quick maybe one arm hug or, you know, I really tried to meet people where they were, but I felt an opening that was like, I might be able to lean in a little bit more. I may hug a little bit tighter. I may hold a little bit longer and

Scott Allan (11:45.336)
Yeah.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (12:13.88)
It was so moving. Every time I could feel somebody’s shoulders drop and I could feel their whole energy just relax and it just moved me every time.

Scott Allan (12:24.482)
Yeah

What did you learn about saying no? mean, not just to others, but even to yourself. Was there a moment when respecting your own limits felt more radical than opening your arms?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (12:39.578)
Yes, but that didn’t come until much later. And I didn’t learn until really the process of writing Rebel Hugger that what happened after my year was over. Because after my year was over, I actually found myself more depressed, more lonely, more in such a dark place.

I expected that this year was gonna like catapult me. Like this is my thing. This is what I’m gonna be out there doing. But instead I felt so.

awful and so depressed. Yeah. And so it took a couple of years of living in that state for me to begin to start unpacking how much I was spending the time getting validation from other people about my own worth. You know, here I was like expecting and wanting to share with other people how worthy they were, but never once did I question that I might not feel that way about myself.

Scott Allan (13:46.936)
That’s interesting. Did you ever let it a rejection make you feel that you weren’t worthy? Was it, was there that danger as well?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (13:56.364)
Not in this particular experiment, not in this hug experiment, but everywhere else in life, anytime I was rejected, it was like a reflection of who I was. So when the year was over, I had a lot of radio interviews and I had a lot of magazine interviews and it was almost like every time I had one, I was judging myself and I would…

get worse and worse and worse because I’m like, am not worthy of this. Like I shouldn’t be out here talking about this because who am I and imposter syndrome and all of the things, you know? And I didn’t know how to navigate all of that back then. So I just let it like sink me deeper into this hole I found myself in.

Scott Allan (14:46.094)
So you hit the road again eight years later and what did you hope to find this time around, you know, that you maybe missed the first time? Was there a ghost you were chasing or was it all about coming around full circle for you?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (14:48.56)
yet.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (14:58.822)
I think it was a coming around full circle because in those eight years, I recognized that I didn’t like myself. I recognized that I had been masking my whole life, that I hadn’t been authentic and that these were all of the challenges that brought me to this depression. So I was in the process of healing. And as I was coming through this healing process, I was like, you know what? I want to not just hug people.

but I want to connect with them. Like I want to bring this, take this deeper. And so I asked people throughout the country to host me in their city and that included hugs, dinner, overnight stays and conversation. And the dinner was intentional because when you are sitting to dinner with somebody, your lizard brain, very primitive part of us,

when you’re eating with somebody recognizes that you’re safe because you wouldn’t be able to digest if you weren’t in a safe space. So that was very intentional to create an even deeper safety than the hugs might create. And therefore we could go deeper with the conversations. That was my.

Scott Allan (16:14.744)
How did you do that? How did you nap? How did you put those together? You know, the stranger and then dinner and a hug and all of that.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (16:22.214)
It was all social media because I was like, know what? Social media is so many people are looking at it as a negative thing. What if we could use it for a positive thing? And so half the people that hosted me were people that I knew and the other half were people that knew people that I knew. And so it was like this chain that of people through social media.

Scott Allan (16:24.098)
Do this.

Scott Allan (16:43.054)
So it was different than the first time. And to a certain degree, there’s a level of, you would say, safety with that because they are all connected somehow. If not to you directly, they’re connected to someone you know. And it’s sort of pre-designed in a way. You know who you’re meeting. It’s not as if you’re walking down the street and seeing a stranger. You’ve met a lot of people. mean, mail carriers.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (17:03.696)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

Scott Allan (17:11.66)
to complete strangers. Was there a single hug that cracked you open? know, one that forced you to sort of confront that part of yourself you’d been avoiding?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (17:23.344)
There were a couple and two…

on very different spectrums. So there was one at the very beginning of my year of hugs that broke me open in the most beautiful way. And it was this woman that I hugged. as I was walking away from her, I overheard her say to somebody, that was the first hug I’ve had in months. And that just impacted me so much because

As somebody who had been hugged my whole life, didn’t think that I under, I didn’t understand at that point the impact that these hugs could make. And so that was a moment that really helped me to see that this is deeper than I think it is. And this is going to be more impactful and transformational than I think it, than I originally thought it would be.

Scott Allan (18:17.998)
No, you are a burn the patriarchy coach. Okay. Okay. Well, what is burned? mean, I was just going to ask. I didn’t even know what that was. Burn the patriarchy. What, is Bernie? And is it, is it, are you still doing the same work or is it different?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (18:24.622)
I actually call myself an empowerment coach now.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (18:36.608)
It’s still the same work. I just call myself empowerment because words matter. it was originally Burn the Patriarchy because I believe that the reason why we are not all out there living our most authentic life is because of these societal constraints that are out there and these rules and these beliefs that we’ve been told that we need to follow in order to live like the best life.

Scott Allan (18:41.133)
Right.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (19:03.876)
When really, if we could just be allowed to be our most authentic self, I think that would go even farther to healing this planet and healing the challenges that we have within each other, within the societies.

Scott Allan (19:16.898)
Yeah, and I think, you know, I love that words matter. Empowerment is such a, it’s such a nicer word. So much nicer than, yes, because you think burn, you’re tearing something down, but empowerment is lifting you up. You don’t want to do that. Words matter. I love that. I do love that. Do you ever find that?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (19:22.138)
Yes, so much nicer.

Right, you don’t want to do that.

Scott Allan (19:38.69)
I mean, did you kind of word what I’m saying? How do you how do you avoid using helping others as a way to bypass your own healing? mean, you ever feel like hugging was a distraction from your own stuff? I mean, how did it? How did you manage that?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (19:53.22)
Yeah, I mean, for sure that first year it was absolutely masking all of my own insecurities and everything. I mean, how validating is it to be loved by all of these people who are so willing to hug you, all these thousands of people, you know? Like, I don’t have to look at any of my stuff. I’m loved by all these people, right? I am by nature somebody who…

Scott Allan (20:10.062)
Yeah.

Scott Allan (20:15.982)
Right, right.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (20:23.108)
doesn’t settle for less than my best self. So it’s been a constant journey of mine to always try to improve upon myself. It’s not something that I really, so I was able to avoid it for that year because I was looking externally. When I became so depressed at the end of that year, there was a point that I realized I had to stop doing it externally and I had to start doing it internally. And so when I was on that second cross country trip,

Scott Allan (20:49.314)
Yes.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (20:52.73)
that was an internal intention I had, was to see what else was out there and to see who else I could be in the face of other people. Because I, you know, I had a very, like my husband and my, or my ex-husband now, and my two boys and a very close knit of people, and that’s all I spent all my time around. So who am I outside of them?

Scott Allan (21:02.2)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Allan (21:17.23)
True, true. I’d love to take a moment just to get slightly philosophical in this. Is true connection, do you think, true connection is about dissolving boundaries or is it about honoring the ones that you have? I mean, there’s a paradox here. Do you wrestle with that or what’s your thought?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (21:24.527)
Yeah.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (21:37.752)
I believe that it is about honoring individual boundaries. I believe that there is, I believe that the best connections that I’ve been able to make are because I found where my boundaries were and I’ve begun to uphold those. And from that space, it’s like Brene, excuse me. It’s like, I’m gonna butcher their name.

There’s this great quote, and I wish I could remember their name, but they said, boundaries are the distance between which I can love you and me simultaneously. It is. It’s true.

Scott Allan (22:11.632)
my God, that’s perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So after all these years and all these hugs, what’s your definition of self love? Does it differ from, you know, the Instagram version where kind of sold

Melinda Lee Schmitt (22:27.0)
Yeah, definitely. My version of self-love is this natural…

condition of owning who we are. So I don’t believe that self-love is this act that we do. I believe it’s something that happens when we can honor and accept and value ourselves. So the more I got to know myself and the more that I was releasing the masks that I had put on to be able to fit in society,

Scott Allan (22:38.115)
Mm-hmm.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (23:04.516)
The more I got to know myself and the more I got to know myself, self-love just became this natural sensation and this natural feeling state that I live in now.

Scott Allan (23:17.9)
I think that’s great. I mean, because that’s where we all want to be, I think, or would want to be, I would imagine. So, for listeners who are terrified of rejection, ridicule, and, let me, let me just say this too. I mean, you’re not advocating that everyone goes out and hugs people, you know, for, for 12 months, right? I mean, there’s different ways to approach things, but, but, but even so we all have fears of rejection. We all have fears of ridicule.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (23:24.165)
Yeah.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (23:37.55)
I’m not.

Scott Allan (23:45.262)
What would you say is the first step to breaking out of that comfort zone without losing yourself?

Melinda Lee Schmitt (23:50.342)
My favorite tool that I still use for myself regularly is every time I’m approaching a boundary of mine or a limit that I maybe want to go beyond, I always place my hand on my heart and I take a deep breath and I return to myself first. And I believe that like from this place of just being with ourselves,

and connecting in with ourselves in our bodies, right? Which is why I place my hands on my heart so that I can feel that sensation and remember to be in my body. From that place, anything is possible.

Scott Allan (24:34.274)
Yeah. You could go back to your very first hug when you set out on the road. What would you whisper to that version of yourself? And what would you want everyone listening here to remember about the risk and the reward of this, I call radical vulnerability.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (24:52.664)
I would say to her and to everybody listening, this matters. It’s going to be hard and do it anyway.

Scott Allan (25:05.198)
Is there a story, a lesson, or even a confession you’ve not shared before that you feel called to offer? Something that might make us all a little braver or at least a little more honest with ourselves. I mean, this is your time and you can talk about anything you wanna talk about that we haven’t necessarily covered.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (25:22.438)
That’s a really great question. Oh my gosh, there’s so much. And I appreciate this question because a lot of times I don’t get the opportunity to go a little bit deeper with some of the grittier things.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (25:40.046)
I had moments where I did lose myself. in losing myself, the face of specifically for me, I’ve been intimidated and feel judged by men in our patriarchal society, right? So there were a couple of moments when in the face of the way that a man treated me, I felt sexualized.

And it felt so uncomfortable, but my people pleasing was so strong in those moments. It was all I could do just to smile my way through it. But then on the other side of it, I would break down and I wouldn’t know why I was breaking down because I had become so disconnected from what it meant to people please versus what it means to be have your boundaries violated. I had never been taught that before.

And that was so devastating because it felt so confusing because I’m like, I don’t understand. They didn’t do anything. They didn’t say anything. They didn’t specifically touch me in a certain way, but they in their energy and the way they were saying things sexualized me in a way that made me feel so uncomfortable and recognize that I did need work to do around my boundaries. So to people that may be afraid of

stepping into these unknown territories because of these moments, I would say these moments are going to happen. And they were some of the best things that could have happened to me for me to be able to learn what it meant to honor myself and to honor my boundaries. And thank God for the people that I have in my life, because all it took was just a quick phone call to them and say, I don’t understand this. Help me understand this. And that includes therapists.

Scott Allan (27:38.616)
Yeah, yeah, Melinda, thank you so much for being here and for being so open, so real and really for reminding us that sometimes the scariest thing isn’t reaching out, it’s looking inside. If you wanna learn more about Melinda’s work, her memoir or her empowerment coaching, head to melindalee Schmidt.com and I’ll have the links in the notes below, but it’s S-C-H-M-I-T-T as you see on the screen.

You’ll find resources, stories, and maybe even the nudge you need to start your own radical art of connection. If tonight’s episode cracks something open and you share it with a friend, leave us a review and join us next week on the Enlightened Life podcast where we keep asking the questions you didn’t know that you needed to ask. Until then, remember that the hug you’re craving might just be the one you give yourself. We’ll see you next time.

Melinda Lee Schmitt (28:37.904)
Thank you, Sam.