Scott Allan (00:02.732)
Imagine believing you have built the perfect life, family, marriage, a sense of belonging, only to watch it all start to unravel, not from your own chaos or choices, but from pain that predates you. Now imagine that unraveling isn’t the end, but rather the beginning of something so much richer, deeper, and more whole than you ever thought possible. Today’s guest didn’t just survive that unraveling, she transformed it.

into a mission to help others heal. I’m Scott Allan and you’re listening to the Enlightened Life podcast where we explore the mysteries of the soul’s journey, healing and transformation. For anyone who hasn’t discovered her work, Michelle Wingel is the founder of the Wholeness Network and the creator of the Wholeness Library, a treasure trove of wisdom, guided meditations and practical tools for living more consciously, joyfully and completely.

She’s a certified energy worker, intuitive and teacher who brings together the best of ancient and modern healing practices to help people reconnect with their own inner power. So if you’re ready to move beyond just getting by and into a life that feels truly whole, you’re going to love this conversation. Michelle, I’m genuinely delighted to have you here. Your story is.

really equal parts raw and hopeful. And I think so many listeners are gonna see themselves in your journey. Thanks for joining us and for being willing to share not just your expertise, but your heart.

Mechelle Wingle (01:37.874)
Thank you. I’m grateful to be here and I love sharing my heart. So thank you for saying that.

Scott Allan (01:42.936)
Well, thank you. Thank you so much. You know, I want to start with the word itself, wholeness. It’s everywhere these days, but, but this isn’t really a destination. it a process or maybe just a marketing buzzword? What’s the real difference between feeling whole and simply being okay.

Mechelle Wingle (01:59.974)
Yeah, well it’s interesting when we first started this it wasn’t a popular word it wasn’t one that was used all the time and it is used quite a bit now but if you were to google wholeness you would find it’s a paradox because it’s both. It is being complete and whole and the process of becoming. So it is actually both and I think that’s beautiful because I think you know you can compare it to

You know, an apple seed is an apple seed whole, and yet it’s not an apple. Is an apple whole, yet it’s not, you know, on my plate. We’re always evolving and we’re always whole at the same time. And I feel like in my bones, that just feels so true. I feel like we’re all doing the best that we can and we’re moving forward, we’re growing. I feel like the opposite of growth is that.

stopping. It’s that damnation. It’s that idea that it’s just the end. It’s apathy. It’s stuck. And so we are always in this growth cycle. And I feel like for me on times, even still it pops up where I’m like, I’m done growing. don’t want to grow anymore because growth has innately, it has some discomfort because we’re moving into a place that we are not used to.

I think if we embrace this idea of wholeness, it takes away a little bit of the sting because it’s like, well, it’s not that there’s a deficit in me. It’s just that I’m growing and being enlightened, adding more light into who I am and what I think and how I feel.

Scott Allan (03:41.356)
Well, and I love that because you you had said that your family’s crisis was really a catalyst for awakening. So in your experience, we talk about wholeness. Do we have to break before we can become whole or is there another way?

Mechelle Wingle (03:54.396)
You know, there is definitely, there’s always other ways, but I feel like right now in a lot of people’s consciousness, it does take some kind of a tap on the shoulder or some kind of a pain point that pushes us to the other side. At least for me, I think there are definitely those old souls that come in and have that wisdom. And a lot of times those ones are taken early, you know, to be honest. But, you know, I hope for the day that

that that’s not the case, that there’s a disruption, but usually there is. Usually there is. And for me, I feel like there had to be. I was just doing fine and going to be on this other course of just being a mom, just hanging out and doing stuff. It’s hard for me to even imagine that that’s what I thought, but I was just doing that thing and then difficulties happened. The first thing was my kids went to school and I thought…

this is going to be so great. My house will be clean for the first time in how many years. And then a week later, I thought, is that really all that I’m about? You know, is that all of who I am? And that was like a sinking feeling because I hadn’t prepared for this for anything beyond. just hadn’t. so and then and then as my husband started to just struggle, he just began to be a different person, started to change. And through years of therapy and and

study finding out that he suffers from CPTSD, from childhood emotional neglect. he was taught to hold the feelings in, taught to be a good boy, to always do things right. at late 30s, early 40s, things, you just can’t hold it anymore. And it starts to fall apart. And the programming is like, I’ve got to pull it together. I’ve got to pull it together until it was difficult. And at one point, he was asleep. He would go to work, come home.

and sleep till the next day for almost a year and a half just in turmoil, just didn’t know how to function. All the tools that had been available to both of us our whole lives just became mute. They weren’t working. And so as he was on that journey, I started on a healing journey and decided, you know, I couldn’t do his healing, but I could figure out my own because it devastated me.

Scott Allan (05:54.589)
my gosh.

Mechelle Wingle (06:21.694)
And now I know that in an interdependent relationship, I have my own life and my own experience not dependent on him. I think as a woman, we’re often programmed to exist in tangent with our man instead of having an independent self within me. And so when he wasn’t okay, I wasn’t okay. And I remember reading

one morning waking up and just going, I need to read Codependent No More, which I had kind of heard of, but I’d never read it. Went to the bookstore, got the audio, the manual and the copy of the book and read it and said that’s what’s going on. And I think a lot of that was trained in me. That was trained. I grew up in a very patriarchal society and that was what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to show up in…

you know, as a secondary person next to my man. And then when he wasn’t okay, I didn’t even know how to function. So that began my journey.

Scott Allan (07:26.53)
Yeah, well, and you know, it reminds me a little bit too, just what you were saying just a moment ago, it’s sort of like when you get on an airplane, they tell you to put your own mask on. If you can’t take care of yourself, how can you take care of anybody else? You need to deal with your own stuff first so that you can help other people and realize that you are not just riding in the sidecar. You’re not, you you have to, you have to take care of yourself. I wanted to ask you about some of the tools you mentioned tools. And I want to ask you about some of the tools.

Mechelle Wingle (07:34.622)
Mm-hmm.

Mechelle Wingle (07:43.4)
Hmm.

Mechelle Wingle (07:47.326)
Yeah.

Scott Allan (07:54.754)
that you’ve used and explored and maybe you can explain to just for people who may not know because you’ve explored NLP and IFS and and other ancient spiritual tools. What is NLP and IFS?

Mechelle Wingle (08:08.594)
So NLP is a neuro-linguistic programming and it’s a lot about thinking in the brain and understanding our thoughts and how to shift them using, it’s really fascinating because our five senses is how, and we have more than that, but that’s how we perceive the world. We perceive the world that way. And so we can take a little test and understand what is our dominant sense.

So some of us are seeing, some of us are hearing, some of us are feeling. And so when we find that, then we found a portal into our subconscious and we can use that portal to retrain ourselves. So that’s what NLP is. IFS stands for Internal Family Systems. It’s really popular right now. There’s a whole lot of talk about it. It was began by Richard Swartz and I’m…

currently taking another class from him, just love it. And it’s about parts work, if you’ve ever heard of parts work. And the beauty about parts work that matches perfectly with wholeness is that there’s this idea that we, at the core of our being, have what he calls the self or the true self. And this true self has all of our knowledge, all of our healing, all of our compassion. And when we can tune into that self, then we can not only get answers, but we can talk

to and help these parts of us. And it makes sense because there’s, when we have a decision to make, most of the time there’s a part of us that wants A and there’s a part of us that wants B or there’s a part of us that says, I want A and there’s another part that says, yeah, but I don’t know. I don’t know if I’m good enough or whatever. Both of those are parts. And when we actually acknowledge them and have a, literally like have a conversation with these parts within us, then, and connected to that self.

we can understand things, heal things. It’s really fascinating. It’s a therapy. So most of the time you would go to a therapist to have IFS, but this is the first time he’s allowed and teaching coaches to do it. So I’m so, so excited to get that certification.

Scott Allan (10:09.453)
Okay.

Scott Allan (10:18.094)
Good for you. What do you think that modern science is missing about the nature of suffering and healing?

Mechelle Wingle (10:27.548)
I would just say some compassion. I think sometimes in that modern thing, you get into the numbers, you get into the statistics, you get into the who’s and what’s, but sometimes everyone’s different, you know? And that’s what I love about IFS. That’s what I love about even Reiki and things like that. I took a heart-centered therapy training and…

What that is is that teaches me to be in the moment with the person there walking with them. In IFS, always let whatever answer comes, we go with it. There’s never, it’s not, it’s been kind of interesting. Cause like I say, this is the first time that he’s allowed coaches to do it. So in fact, I’m going to be on a call today and there’s going to be 500 people on this call and they’re all coaches.

And coaching is used to saying, hey, have you done this? What’s going on? How come you haven’t done this? What’s wrong? know, like, hey, promise me you’ll do this. And a couple, you they had, you have to reteach us and say, that’s not what this is about. This is about asking a question, getting an answer and saying, okay, that makes sense. Because everything we do honestly makes sense from the path that we have walked. And when you really embody that, it’s amazing how

the world just seems a little kinder. We have a lot more patience with ourselves and with other people. And we get to let go of some of those biases that we just naturally have, which in IFS we call those parts. Those are parts, so we need to understand those parts. Hey, what’s going on? And in parts work, parts are always, we call them protectors.

They serve a purpose because they’re there to protect us in some way, even if it doesn’t make sense, even if it’s cutting, even if it’s an addiction, there’s a protective quality to it. And when we go and talk to that part, it’s amazing what it will share, what it will explain. And it’s just, there’s a lot of, that makes sense. And so as we build a relationship with them, then they can begin to tell us more and more. most of the time,

Mechelle Wingle (12:39.326)
some of the ones that are bigger disruptions, we can see that there are these moments in our past where things were hard and we took on these beliefs or this way of being that was necessary for the time. it’s just trying, it’s this young, young part of us trying to do this heavy work. And when they get unburdened, it’s really amazing to see how quickly change can come.

when we understand the why.

Scott Allan (13:11.182)
So you developed the, founded the Wholeness Network, right? Which brings together dozens of healing modalities. we all wanna, and I wanna talk about that, I wanna talk about what that is, but I also want to understand a little bit, if someone goes onto the Wholeness Network, how do they discern what they really need? Because I feel like sometimes when you go to therapy or you go to anything like that, even if you go to a coach, you don’t.

know what you need because you don’t know what you don’t know.

Mechelle Wingle (13:42.568)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, that’s true. And if that’s the case, I think that there’s reason to pause right there. That’s just reason to pause and recognize that we don’t understand ourselves in a way that we were hoping to. So that’s that’s step one is that I don’t have access to to information within me, which I think a lot of times the number one reason for that is because we disconnect from our bodies because

A long time ago, when I was thinking about some things, and it was funny, now we talk about these four bodies, mental body, emotional body, physical body, spiritual body. But a long time ago, I was sitting in meditation and that idea came to me. had lost a bunch of weight and I was trying to understand how I did it because everybody wanted to say, how did you do it? And it wasn’t about my exercise. It wasn’t about what I ate. It was this aha moment. I had a strong belief that I had birthed four kids and therefore I could not be a thin person. That was

just as simple as that. And when that broke down, everything changed. Like in an instant that broke down, everything changed. And so I was trying to figure out how I could explain to everybody this idea because they didn’t have the same belief to them. They were like, well, that’s dumb. So I was sitting there in meditation and I thought, you know, everybody says I’m an emotional eater and this thought percolated and it said, if the weight?

Scott Allan (14:56.822)
Yeah, I know.

Mechelle Wingle (15:09.006)
is in the emotional body. You know, what if we have these bodies? What if it accumulates more than just the physical body and all we do is attend the physical body and yet we have these other bodies that need to be… So that sent me on a big journey of those four bodies. But what was interesting is in… I explored more and I realized that the body is the communicator. That was how it was spoken to me. The body is the communicator. And I remember

speaking to my colleague about it and saying, and she says, but I have feelings and I says, how does it feel in your body? And she went, because we do, we feel things, we understand things. We usually have a physical sensation in our body when we’re doing this. But when we have difficulties, then we have difficult sensations in our body. So the easiest way to get rid of those, cut it off. Cut it off. So then we lose access to that information.

So then we need to start with maybe some body connection. So if we don’t know, we would start with some body connection. learning to meditate is really important. Now, I don’t care what kind of meditation to do. In fact, for the longest time, I would sit there and people would talk about meditating and I’m like, that’s not how I do it. Normally people try to get rid of their thoughts during meditation. I actually will sit there and of course my mind’s running around like a

you know, like a maniac, like everybody. And then pretty soon, all of a sudden, it’ll just zero in on a thought or an idea. And I just go with it and I learned profound things. That was how one of the first tools that I ever had was, was, somebody said, why don’t you try meditating? And in this meditation, ask for a gift is what I was, you know, and I was like, I don’t know. So I sit in my closet, I close my eyes, my heart is beating out of my chest because I’m in such turmoil.

that if this doesn’t work, you know, it’s one of those things where I don’t know what I’ll do. So I kind of just sat there for a minute and all of sudden I, all of a sudden the scene changed and I was in this ravine and there was a, like I always picture it like in the movie, the last crusade with Indiana Jones, you and at the end he goes on that long trail and he can’t see anything until he throws some sand on it and realizes it’s this narrow, narrow path that crosses this.

Mechelle Wingle (17:34.622)
this long ravine. It was very much like that. And there was a was a ways to cross it took a time. It took some time, you know, I knew I was going to be that was going to be scary to cross that. And so the thought came to my mind, well, I’ll just hurry and fall off and get it over with. Like, that’s the feeling I had. And I was, I was, I felt this, you know, feeling of don’t do that. Keep going. And so I in that meditation, you know, kind of in

probably just stared at it for a while and just like, I don’t know what I’m gonna do. And then I would go back to it several times and over years I would check in and I would be a little bit further on that path, a little bit further on that path. Then I remember feeling like I’ve gotten through it, now I’m in a desert, you know? And then I would be like, okay, there’s, and I’d have this feeling, there’s an oasis up ahead, just keep moving. And to tell it, I felt like that that completed at some point, but that’s what kept me going.

That was that first time I ever meditated, the first tool I ever had was so profound. It’s what brought me here today because it just keeps going. Don’t give up. Don’t stop. You could, like that was the feeling, you could, but we really wish you wouldn’t.

Scott Allan (18:45.71)
We wish you wouldn’t. Yeah. And changing the mindset, I think is really where, know, it’s sort of funny. I’m chuckling a little bit in my head when you had said something about, you know, I’ve had four babies, so therefore I have extra weight. you know, the reality is, you know, I just turned 59. I’m not as thin as, mean, you know, I’m not obese, but I’m not like I was when I was 19, nor do I want to be that thin again. But the funny thing is, is we’re talking, I just had this conversation with someone about how, you know, we’re

Mechelle Wingle (19:07.238)
Right.

Scott Allan (19:14.158)
We’re not like we used to be. The bodies aren’t the same as they used to be. And I jokingly said to this friend of mine, well, my son is gonna be 12. He just turned 12, actually, he just turned 12. And I said, well, know, I said, I don’t understand. He’s 12 years old and I still haven’t lost my baby weight. You know, I mean, it’s like, you know, that excuse, but you know, there are a bunch of excuses and you know, it’s getting out of your head a bit to get in and change.

Mechelle Wingle (19:32.755)
Right.

Scott Allan (19:42.092)
change the direction and the path and know that you can really take that journey. know, some spiritual teachers will say to, you know, you are not broken, but what about those who really feel it or even benefit from seeing themselves in that way? Is there value, do you think, in, I want to say temporary brokenness because we don’t ever want to be there forever, but do you think there’s some value in that or no?

Mechelle Wingle (19:45.854)
Hmm.

Mechelle Wingle (19:53.31)
Mmm.

Mechelle Wingle (20:06.078)
Well, you know, if I was working with a client one-on-one and they said, feel like it’s important to say I’m broken and I need to be fixed, then I would sit with them and say, okay, I will be broken with you. You let’s be broken together. What does that feel like? What does feeling broken make you want to do? You know, let’s really explore that feeling. What sensations in our body does that bring up? And then most of the time I’m just like, yeah, right. Yeah, that’s right. What would it?

what would happen or what if we could be fixed? What would that feel like? We can practice that as well. That’s the exciting thing about humans is that we can practice states of being and we have access to all of those emotions. And that’s the other thing too. Again, I would recognize, okay, there’s a part of us that feels broken. Does that feel correct? Versus we’re all broken.

And that helps a little bit to separate ourselves from this piece. And then we can talk to that feeling, that part that feels broken. But we have access to all these emotions. we think that we’re trying to get to a point where we have no quote, negative emotions. But that’s kind of like, I want to see only the colors that are my favorite and nothing else. We are human beings here having an experience of humanity, like being human.

And so we will have all those emotions. The thing that’s the problem is, is that in our society, we have decided there are good and there are bad, or if there are bad, we have done something, or if there are bad, we’ve got to hurry and make that go away. I still feel that on some days. I still feel that I have to sit with it and say, feel, what does this feel like? I have to get really clear on what it feels like. And especially like I say, in the body, communicate.

say there it is in the body. Okay, is there anything you want me to do or is there anything you want me to to say? And sometimes it’s just, I just need to feel this for a minute. And the discomfort is great. Sometimes I don’t like it. But I, but by nature, emotions, they shift and they move. That’s one of their major qualities is that they move and change. So if I can hold it for a little bit, you know, and maybe I have to reach out and get help. Sometimes I need someone to sit with me in that.

Scott Allan (22:06.476)
Yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (22:26.024)
But if I can hold through it, then it processes out, it expresses out. then sometimes I’ve got to go to bed and wake up the next day. It’s like that. But I hold that space for that day that it’s like, in some way, this is a holy day. This one’s difficult. This one’s harder.

Scott Allan (22:31.096)
Yeah.

Scott Allan (22:42.626)
Well, it’s funny, and I was just gonna say to you, know, the paradox of healing is that the things that hurt us the most are sometimes the very things that wake us up and pull us little bit further, you know?

Mechelle Wingle (22:50.34)
Mm-hmm. Yep, it’s true. It’s true and I would say, know, just because it’s difficult and we don’t like it, let’s, you know, you can acknowledge that this is really, this hurts. You know, I don’t like this. I wish it was a little bit different, you know, and instead of saying, but it’s okay, but it’s okay, you know, like really go into those emotions and especially know that that’s just one part because there is that other part that says, but there’s growth here. So we listen to both.

parts fully. You when was the first time I felt this way? Once you get really, really clear about the feelings inside the body and what it feels like, we can say, when was the first time I felt this? And you’ll be surprised at what comes forward. Things that you don’t expect. Sometimes it’s just a small, simple thing that’s showed up in our childhood that has created this. never doing that again, right? Which is great. It’s like, that’s nice.

Scott Allan (23:43.628)
Yes.

Yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (23:47.998)
But we need to, know, but that younger person’s trying to carry that load and saying, we gotta never do this again. So I’ve gotta do this, this, this, this, you know, to make sure that doesn’t happen again. And that’s a young, it’s a young person. They don’t know how to do that. So a lot of times you can tell them how, you know, you can say, you know, how, how old do you think I am? And a lot of times those parts laugh. You know, I had to go quiet the other day and she’s like, I said, just how old do they think you are? And she said, oh, young. And I said, well, let them know how old you are. She was in her sixties and she said, they’re just laughing like,

Are you kidding me? And so we asked, know, do you think a 63 year old could handle this? And they were like, yeah, actually. Okay, that makes sense. I don’t have to do it. We’ve got this self that’s able to do all the things.

Scott Allan (24:32.056)
Yeah. Are there limits to mindfulness?

Mechelle Wingle (24:36.008)
Well, think, yeah, I think that’s a good question. think, you know, I think we, again, we’re here to have a human experience. And so some days we’re going to, you know, we, you know, some days we’re gonna watch that show. Sometimes we’re gonna listen to that music. Sometimes we’re gonna eat that food. And, and, you know, maybe that’s, maybe if we are actually choosing it, maybe that’s mindfulness, you know, I don’t know, but, but yeah, I think that sometimes I think we have to.

I think that people can get, like there’s a line where we move into this, opposite end of the spectrum, and that’s not necessarily healthy either.

Scott Allan (25:15.692)
Well, true. you know, that’s I was going to say too. Is there the danger of slipping into perfectionism?

Mechelle Wingle (25:22.288)
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I’ve known when I’ve gone to conferences, you you’re looking at maybe this is an energy healing conference and I see people sitting there and they’re sniffing their essential oils every three minutes. I’m thinking, okay, we’re still not addressing the underlying problems, you know. We’ve moved on to a different tool, but there’s some anxiety there. There’s some hurt there. We need to pause there for a minute.

Scott Allan (25:47.534)
Right. Right. Yeah. It’s not a magic potion. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s sort of all encompassing. You also teach intuitive and psychic development.

Mechelle Wingle (25:55.42)
A little bit. Yeah, well, I’m learning it myself. I have always been intuitive. I didn’t know I was intuitive till my late 40s. I didn’t know that little kids didn’t have conversations with their dead grandma when they were little and, you know, talk about what their mom has just done and said, like, can you do something for her? She’s, you know, I’m tattling to my grandma who’s dead when I’m five years old. You know, like this happened quite a bit. I did not know that other people didn’t do that.

Scott Allan (25:59.491)
Yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (26:24.734)
I just thought, you know, I don’t know. So and again, my upbringing, I was so focused on being a good mom and being a good wife and being a good homemaker. I didn’t develop. didn’t take time to say, wow, I have some of these gifts. So it’s been a journey for me to accept that. took a long time to accept that. It took a long time to speak it out loud.

And so it’s one of those things where it comes, you know, like there’s just inspiration sometimes that comes, things that were our family. After my dad passed away, there was all of his book with all of the will and the trust was missing. They tried to find it even before my dad had passed. He’s like, I have all this information and I don’t know where it’s at.

and the lawyer, the attorney had stopped working or something. I can’t remember. So it was just kind of like, we’ve got to find this paperwork. I was, you know, a lot of times I get woken up in the middle of the night and I drew a picture of where something lost. I wasn’t sure what it was. And then we were going to my dad’s house to kind of help clean it out. And people were talking about this lost thing.

And my brother-in-law was the one who had kind of came to me. And so when they were talking about it, I said, OK, let me think of where this is. It was like a piece of furniture that was low that had a scallop at the bottom. And there was kind of maybe books behind. And it was behind. So I walked where it was, picked it up, said, here it is. And my family was like, what? Which still, they still. I’m the youngest. I’m the youngest of seven kids. And.

Scott Allan (28:06.832)
wow.

Mechelle Wingle (28:08.358)
So my six siblings are just kind of like, who are you? I was a little extra at the end. I was surprised, little at the end. So my closest siblings, six and a half years older than me. I was always that cute little sister. And so they’re like, what happened? Because I did, I changed. I wasn’t always this person because I didn’t know. So that was the first time they were like, is this what you’re kind of talking about? And I think to this day, they’re still kind of like, I don’t.

what happened there or just like pretend like that didn’t happen. It was like a little, it was a little freaky but it was and it freaked me out too. I was shaking. I was like, wow.

Scott Allan (28:39.959)
It is.

Yeah, but you could have brushed it off as a coincidence. And I think that’s what a lot of people do, right? So they the intuition that, what a coincidence. I was just thinking of that. whatever, you know? And it’s not always the case, you know, there is something else that’s going here a lot.

Mechelle Wingle (28:47.08)
true.

Mechelle Wingle (28:55.226)
Yes, yeah we all have that access. We all do. It’s about tuning in and again back to the body. It’s like I can feel in my battery whether it’s my own brain talking or whether it’s something else and I have to that’s the muscle to practice honestly.

Scott Allan (29:09.324)
Yeah, speaking of the body, there a wisdom that you found in the physical that you couldn’t reach through the mind or spirit alone?

Mechelle Wingle (29:20.828)
in the physical, in the physical, my physical body or yeah. So I, the heart is like, to me, that’s like a portal. That’s like a portal to heaven. Like you can, if you bring, if you just take a couple breaths, you can just take a couple breaths right now and just imagine dropping that, that all this, first of all, you gotta get noticed all the stuff that’s going in your brain. Like it’s actually buzzing, you know, and you can bring that sensation down into the heart and you just feel kind of this light, light.

Scott Allan (29:23.298)
Yeah, physically. Yeah, yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (29:50.27)
and then you can ask your heart questions. I have a colleague, she calls it the Google. She’s like, it’s better than Google. You can ask a question like, what is best for me? What should I do right now? And really understanding, again, back to those senses, am I gonna hear it? Am I gonna see it? Maybe a visual will show up. Maybe I’ll hear like a word. Maybe I will.

feel something in my body and then we have to ask again, so tell me more, know, tell me more. We got to stick with it for a little bit maybe to practice. But the wisdom can come that fit that heart, you know, whether it’s our heart physically, but it’s also that heart chakra, which is the bridge between all the spiritual and the physical chakras. And so there’s a power there, you know, we can also on the Holiness Network, one of our guides is her name is Christine Lang.

She just has a book out that says, you know, ask your spirit. And she, I was looking to see if I had it around, but you know, and she talks about, know, your spirit has answers for you. You can learn to talk to your own spirit and say, what do I need? And when you build that muscle, you can, it’s there, which again, you would probably call that an IFS, that big S self, you know, it’s the same concept, different vocabulary. Vocabulary gets us tripped up a lot when you’re first starting out.

vocabulary can get you tripped up because there’s so many words. you’ll say, like I remember feeling the idea of duality. There was like, no, we don’t want dualistic. Well, the duality, you know, it’s like there, if you actually look it up, it’s another paradox. It’s both and. And so we get confused with, don’t get stuck on the vocabulary. Everybody’s got a different word and we got to feel it. That’s why we got to feel it in our bodies more than our brains.

Scott Allan (31:36.706)
I don’t think you know. I think you’re absolutely right. And don’t get discouraged if you’re not getting it the first or second time. really, you will start to understand not just the way it feels, but how spirit communicates with you. It’s because we’re all different, right? So how you receive what you receive and how I receive might be entirely different. And you you say, I feeling it, thinking it, knowing it, but sometimes it’s a little bit of each and it’s sort of like.

Mechelle Wingle (31:53.278)
Mm-hmm.

Mechelle Wingle (32:03.742)
Yeah.

Scott Allan (32:04.338)
a jigsaw puzzle together to make it fit and understand what the message is that’s coming. So don’t give up on that. It is a little nuanced. I don’t use any language at all. mean, don’t sit there and this is duality. I don’t use any of that. You know? don’t get caught up in it.

Mechelle Wingle (32:13.969)
Yeah, it is.

Mechelle Wingle (32:18.654)
Right, Yep. Yeah, I love one of the tools. love the Enneagram. Sometimes that’s helpful because people understand a little bit more about themselves. And in the Enneagram, it’s divided into a trine and there’s people that are in the body trine, there’s people that are in the feelings trine, and there’s people that are in the mind trine. And that’s helpful sometimes because there’s a lot of, it’s really difficult for people that are very mind-based.

to feel like they can come into this world because everybody’s like, don’t pay attention to your mind, don’t pay attention. But that doesn’t work. They are mind-based. It’s going to process a little differently for them. And they’ve got to practice and figure out how that works. But they probably be very visual, things like that. the mind is not bad. We just need to bring in the other thing. So it’s like, OK, here’s this thought. OK, how do I feel about that thought? What does that feel like in my body?

And then the spiritual body is all about connection and meaning. How is that meaningful for me? Or what meaning does that have for me? Because you’ll get like a picture and it’s not gonna feel the same for everybody. It’s not gonna feel the same for everybody. how does that mean for me? What is that trying to say to me? And you can think it, you can think through it and then check it with those other bodies.

Scott Allan (33:40.238)
Yeah, and I find too, and I don’t know if you can understand this either, but it’s almost like sometimes the less you think, the better. Like, what is just coming and what’s the first thing that kind of like, how did it first make you feel? Because if you start thinking, then your brain’s in the way and things kind of go awry, you know? Because.

Mechelle Wingle (33:47.646)
true.

Mechelle Wingle (33:53.584)
Mm-hmm.

Mechelle Wingle (33:58.172)
Yep.

Scott Allan (34:01.602)
what I see is not necessarily what you see or feel or think. And so you just have to kinda, know, sometimes you just can’t get your head in it too much. I know we just talked about people who are head-based and I totally get that. I have always been that way a little bit. It took me so long to kind of open up because I was, I say kind of a healthy skeptic, I was a good skeptic. I believed but I needed it to be proven to me. Just a quick question on

Mechelle Wingle (34:05.255)
Mm-hmm.

Mechelle Wingle (34:13.65)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (34:21.992)
Yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (34:25.886)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Allan (34:29.524)
someone, you know, someone, so someone’s listening to this and they are living with a narcissist or they’re in some kind of a toxic dynamic. What do you think is the first philosophical shift that they might need to make, not just for their own survival, but for reclaiming their wholeness?

Mechelle Wingle (34:44.156)
Hmm. Number one is sometimes it is them and not us. You know, we’re always trying to do our own work, which is good, you know, but sometimes that gets us tripped up because it’s like, well, maybe if I do this, you know, to understand the dynamic of the relationship. So many people, don’t like, you know, to use that word, the narcissist, you know, they’re like, well, I don’t want to call them that. I know. it’s like, well, I don’t want to call them anything. It’s not about calling it. It’s about understanding the dynamic. And when we understand the dynamic of a relationship,

It’s very predictable. And so when we know that dynamic, then we can start to work on ourselves. We have to understand the dynamic of what we’re working with. Because even my husband in his therapy one day, says, I think I might be a little narcissistic or narcissistic tendencies. And the therapist just kind of nodded because it wasn’t because he’s this diagnosed narcissist. That’s one thing that gets struggles. There is a diagnosis, but because he was so

wounded. Yeah, he was just focused on his own self. couldn’t put himself in somebody else’s perspective because he was in such pain inside himself. to understand, know, so even still, I’m still married to him. I still love him. But we had to understand that dynamic for a time that was like, is so self-focused that I can’t expect him to assume my position.

He can’t for a minute. more therapy came and that changed. But for that minute, I mean, it was him that kind of said, I think I’m that way. And that started to shift things. But yeah, sometimes it’s them. Sometimes it’s not us. And most of the time when you’re with a narcissist, you’re the most empathic person. So you will try to fix yourself to support the other person.

Scott Allan (36:21.89)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Allan (36:35.19)
It’s so funny you say that because my whole life, I am an empath and the whole life I was, I don’t want to say attracted in a romantic way, but just sort of like magnetically attracted, it felt to people who needed to be fixed by me. That’s all I thought. I hate to fix these people. And I didn’t even realize I was doing it until I looked back years later and I don’t want to, I don’t need to do that. That’s not my job. Yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (36:50.3)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mechelle Wingle (36:59.429)
Right.

Scott Allan (37:01.314)
Before we wrap up, is there a story or a thought you’d love to leave with our listeners?

Mechelle Wingle (37:07.07)
Well, just wanted to, a thought popped in when we were talking about, you know, receiving that stuff in the flow and things like that. So one time I was, dared to put out like a free webinar where I was going to practice my intuitiveness. You know, I was like, and it was really scary. And a lady, you know, got on and, and she, I immediately started to see some visuals. And what, what happened was as I begin,

to, saw what I first saw is I saw a little girl reaching up and holding the hand of her mom. And then, and my brain wanted to think about what that meant. You know, it wanted to go into what this means versus just saying it. And so I kind of, and then it moved on to the next thing and I saw this little doll. And so said, okay, I see there’s like a doll. And she was like, my gosh, my mom, she collected dolls, you know, she collected dolls and, and

We went off on this tangent, but it was in when she described the dolls. It looked different than the doll I had seen. And so I got off the call and we went on a bike ride and I just thought, okay, I was like half praying, half asking my guides, half talking to myself, you know, saying, okay, listen, if I’m going to do this, I need to know if, if like, well, it was that right? You know, it’s the first time I had done it with somebody just out there on with somebody I didn’t know.

And so I said, I need to know if this is my path. Will you show me a blue butterfly? know, blue butterfly, that’s my message. Let’s go. So we went on this bike ride. I saw the color blue that I was looking for a thousand places, but never a butterfly. And my heart would just be beating. I’m like, oh no, this is, what am I going to do? Is that supposed to, you know, whatever. We went on a different path that we usually go. And as we came around the court.

you know, we’re almost home, I thought, is this, is that the lesson is to like, you know, like to not interpret it, you know, kind of this idea of like, are you trying to show me something? And that second I turned, there’s a blue butterfly that’s turned right there. So I learned the lesson not to interpret, but to just say what I saw. Come to find out, I talked to the woman later, her sister had passed, was passed, and her mom and her sister had a missing arm.

Mechelle Wingle (39:26.62)
which I didn’t know. that was the whole reaching. She was able to reach up and hold hands with her mom now that she wouldn’t have been able to do in physical form. And so there was deep messages there that I didn’t get because I was trying to find the meaning in myself. I was trying to logic it and figure it out. So that was a really good lesson to learn to just let it be, just let the answers come.

Scott Allan (39:50.808)
Great lesson.

Mechelle Wingle (39:55.134)
instead of trying to interpret them, but it’s so easy to do. Yeah, actually, yeah, that’s what I mean. You’re right.

Scott Allan (39:58.722)
It is, it is. It’s difficult not to do it actually. It’s true, it’s true. Thank you so much, Michelle. I appreciate you being here. And if you all want to dive a little deeper into Michelle’s world, check out the Wholeness Network. And it’s the Wholeness, is it thewholenessnetwork.com?

Mechelle Wingle (40:15.408)
Yes, thewholenessnetwork.com. Yep.

Scott Allan (40:17.762)
And here’s a special gift use code Michele M-E as you can see at the screen M-E-C-H-E-L-L-E for two months free access to the wholeness library packed with wisdom, meditations and practical tools to help you feel more whole every day. And if you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with someone who might need a little hope or a fresh start. And don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review and join us next week for more stories of transformation on the enlightened life podcast. Until then.

Healing is possible. Purpose is real and wholeness is available to every one of us, even if it looks a little messy along the way. We’ll see you next time.

Mechelle Wingle (41:00.422)
Bye. Awesome.